Incredibly wrong.RN BBs have the same weakness to HE as pretty much everything else at t8 and below, because everything dies to cruisers there.Above T8, instead of getting better armor to mitigate HE damage, you get superheal to do the same thing. I'd argue it's better, but that's just me.RN BBs might have worse pen, but it doesn't actually matter because BB pen is so excessive at high tiers that you don't actually notice a difference.Again: underwater cits. Basically aren't a thing. You.certainly. shouldn't be looking for them as a selling point.I don't know where you're getting this info, but you're just wrong.
Click to expand.You're here screaming about how the sky is orange really loudly, but all I can say is that it only takes a glance out the window to see that the sky is blue.With regards to their survivability, low tier cruisers have far less potential to kill BBs than higher tier ones, which is why plating resistance is such a factor for RN BBs. Other lines, or ships with low plating have a different mitigating factors to help them out. USN BBs have the lowest end module HP, French ships have their speed, IJN need to use their accuracy at longer ranges to not get fucked at Tiers 7 and 8, and so on. RN BBs must depend on their stealth past Tier 5, and if you are constantly firing, it's not going to work, which is why I am banged on about it for so long.Same case with Super heal, it's completely ineffective at mitigating cruiser alpha damage, especially given the terrible HP of the RN BBs, but fantastic at stopping DOT. It's the exact opposite of how all other BB lines tank, and because you take damage in such a spiky manner, rather than the slower, smoother delta of the plating protected BBs, you must rely on your stealth and disengage. That's why they need to play slowly and carefully, otherwise you die in minutes after managing to pop a single super heal cycle.Their offensive power with AP, is as I said, and I quote.
Click to expand.Now we can have a quick look at the non 419mm naval rifles of the RN BB line. I was being a tad unfair to the Monarch is this case, it has alright guns for a Tier 6 BB.As you can see, it has better pen than even the Tier 6 New Mexico, having 15mm more at 15km taking into account angle of fall. Though unfortunately, much worse than the Tier 7 Gneisenau, losing by 35mm of pen.
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I will say that is an ok gun, just not great for a Tier 8 that may see T10s with 400mm+ armour before armour incline is taken into account.However, every RN BB below that is trash tier.KGV with it's 355mm of pen, against flat broadside ships, can't pen her own 381mm belt at 15, nor can she pen Gneisenau, who beats her guns with her inclined belt. It beats the Colorado's belt, but not by much, and a little bit of RNG going against you will fuck you up.QE has 340, which loses to NM, Bayern, and QE herself after taking armour incline into account.Iron Duke and Orion are dumpster fires just barely capable of penning the IJN Kongo's 203mm of belt at 15.So no, their AP is trash until the 419mm, and you need to aim high quite often unlike the USN like, which doesn't have it's shells defeated at sane combat distances anywhere on the line.As for underwater cits, its how most BBs get reliable citadels on normal sized cruisers. I'm astonished you're denying their existence, especially after offhandedly mentioning PEBCAK.I'm in fact really confused at your ideas on how RN BBs work.Possibilities are:You are playing on PTS server,You have not played nor understand tier DPM cruisersYou have not played RN BBs at allYou've ONLY played RN BBs for battleships lines. Given your ignorance about underwater pens, I think this is the most likely case.What is your highest tier RN BB anyway? Or are you yet another Manual Secondary Moskva fan? You're here screaming about how the sky is orange really loudly, but all I can say is that it only takes a glance out the window to see that the sky is blue.With regards to their survivability, low tier cruisers have far less potential to kill BBs than higher tier ones, which is why plating resistance is such a factor for RN BBs.
Other lines, or ships with low plating have a different mitigating factors to help them out. USN BBs have the lowest end module HP, French ships have their speed, IJN need to use their accuracy at longer ranges to not get fucked at Tiers 7 and 8, and so on.
RN BBs must depend on their stealth past Tier 5, and if you are constantly firing, it's not going to work, which is why I am banged on about it for so long.Same case with Super heal, it's completely ineffective at mitigating cruiser alpha damage, especially given the terrible HP of the RN BBs, but fantastic at stopping DOT. It's the exact opposite of how all other BB lines tank, and because you take damage in such a spiky manner, rather than the slower, smoother delta of the plating protected BBs, you must rely on your stealth and disengage. That's why they need to play slowly and carefully, otherwise you die in minutes after managing to pop a single super heal cycle.Their offensive power with AP, is as I said, and I quoteNow we can have a quick look at the non 419mm naval rifles of the RN BB line. I was being a tad unfair to the Monarch is this case, it has alright guns for a Tier 6 BB.As you can see, it has better pen than even the Tier 6 New Mexico, having 15mm more at 15km taking into account angle of fall.
Though unfortunately, much worse than the Tier 7 Gneisenau, losing by 35mm of pen. I will say that is an ok gun, just not great for a Tier 8 that may see T10s with 400mm+ armour before armour incline is taken into account.However, every RN BB below that is trash tier.KGV with it's 355mm of pen, against flat broadside ships, can't pen her own 381mm belt at 15, nor can she pen Gneisenau, who beats her guns with her inclined belt. It beats the Colorado's belt, but not by much, and a little bit of RNG going against you will fuck you up.QE has 340, which loses to NM, Bayern, and QE herself after taking armour incline into account.Iron Duke and Orion are dumpster fires just barely capable of penning the IJN Kongo's 203mm of belt at 15.So no, their AP is trash until the 419mm, and you need to aim high quite often unlike the USN like, which doesn't have it's shells defeated at sane combat distances anywhere on the line.As for underwater cits, its how most BBs get reliable citadels on normal sized cruisers.
I'm astonished you're denying their existence, especially after offhandedly mentioning PEBCAK.I'm in fact really confused at your ideas on how RN BBs work.Possibilities are:You are playing on PTS server,You have not played nor understand tier DPM cruisersYou have not played RN BBs at allYou've ONLY played RN BBs for battleships lines. Given your ignorance about underwater pens, I think this is the most likely case.What is your highest tier RN BB anyway? Or are you yet another Manual Secondary Moskva fan? Click to expand.Wow, that was incredible.For survivability: below t9, pretty much every single line has awful plating.
NC, Amagi, Richelieu, Monarch, you name it. Below there is even worse.Nobody has effective HE mitigation until t9.I'd argue Monarch has.better. HE resistance than her peers because her belt goes so high up. And, you know, 11.5km concealment.I'm not sure what you're talking about when it comes to USN and MN BBs. Speed is entirely useless when it comes to dodging HE, and module HP.
Isn't even a mechanic? If you meant subsection HP, then you're just wrong, because that's standardized among all BBs.IJN BBs.can.
use range to mitigate HE, but that's often a bad idea because the world needs very few sniper BBs.Super heal deals with damage differently than thicker plating, but that doesn't mean that it's bad. I'd argue it's better, but at that point it's just personal preference.Regarding AP: Of course you have worse pen. That's not in question.Given that you don't have any real chance of citting other BBs, however. Why are you even aiming for the belt?Once again: UNDERWATER CITS ARE VERY RARE. I don't know where the hell you got that idea, but you're just flat-out wrong. Go into a training room and test it.And yes, you found me out.
I play solely sec spec Moskva. My darkest secret is revealed. Wow, that was incredible.For survivability: below t9, pretty much every single line has awful plating. NC, Amagi, Richelieu, Monarch, you name it. Below there is even worse.Nobody has effective HE mitigation until t9.I'd argue Monarch has.better. HE resistance than her peers because her belt goes so high up. And, you know, 11.5km concealment.I'm not sure what you're talking about when it comes to USN and MN BBs.
Speed is entirely useless when it comes to dodging HE, and module HP. Isn't even a mechanic? If you meant subsection HP, then you're just wrong, because that's standardized among all BBs.IJN BBs.can. use range to mitigate HE, but that's often a bad idea because the world needs very few sniper BBs.Super heal deals with damage differently than thicker plating, but that doesn't mean that it's bad.
I'd argue it's better, but at that point it's just personal preference.Regarding AP: Of course you have worse pen. That's not in question.Given that you don't have any real chance of citting other BBs, however. Why are you even aiming for the belt?Once again: UNDERWATER CITS ARE VERY RARE. I don't know where the hell you got that idea, but you're just flat-out wrong. Go into a training room and test it.And yes, you found me out. I play solely sec spec Moskva. My darkest secret is revealed.
Click to expand.You really think that battleships don't dodge or reposition to mitigate the amount of HE damage they take? Speed is a characteristic for how much HE damage you will be taking, just like stealth, and a Monarch firing every 25 seconds is not stealthed, this having no real way to mitigate the incoming HE damage. It's belt structure -and that of the Lion and Conq- is not an advantage, as most peers have torpedo belts or upper belts which provide similar coverage.As for below Tier 8, there's Tier 7. And then you get down to the tier where BBs have incremental plating.
As for subsection HP, you are wrong, different ships have varying amounts of HP allocated by percentage in their subsections, for example, the USN standards never break more than 20%/10k HP combined in their ends, which is why they are much harder to hose down than their armour scheme suggests.I just saved myself some time and found you WoWS numbers. Look mate, you've gotten one super heal ship, the Neptune, and the damage the Neptune takes in a world away from what the RN BBs takes in characteristics. Super heal is not a replacement for HE resistant plating, as said, it serves the exact opposite role, which is why you cannot tank in the RN BBs and must play slow.As for the AP pen debate,1: I tell a guy not to aim for BB belts because RN BB AP Pen is bad,2: You chime in and tell me their AP pen is not bad, obviously implying to aim for belts3: I post proof the pen is bad,4: You: 'My god you idiot, why are you aiming for belt?' Like, what the hell is this.Underwater citadels are not rare. Problem exists between keyboard and chair.
I suggest you actually play more than 2 lines of BBs, and play them well, before you try such a broad statement again.As for sec spec Moskva, some guy came into this thread a while back, heralding that secondary spec Moskva is the best build, despite having only Tier 6 ships. You are very quickly approaching that level of idiocy.You know what, I'm just gonna take page outta your book;As the 25th best Monarch player on NA and the 40th best Amagi player, as well as someone who has all BBs lines to Tier 10, I am going to tell you that the British Battleship line is shit at tanking. You really think that battleships don't dodge or reposition to mitigate the amount of HE damage they take? Speed is a characteristic for how much HE damage you will be taking, just like stealth, and a Monarch firing every 25 seconds is not stealthed, this having no real way to mitigate the incoming HE damage. It's belt structure -and that of the Lion and Conq- is not an advantage, as most peers have torpedo belts or upper belts which provide similar coverage.As for below Tier 8, there's Tier 7. And then you get down to the tier where BBs have incremental plating. As for subsection HP, you are wrong, different ships have varying amounts of HP allocated by percentage in their subsections, for example, the USN standards never break more than 20%/10k HP combined in their ends, which is why they are much harder to hose down than their armour scheme suggests.I just saved myself some time and found you WoWS numbers.
Look mate, you've gotten one super heal ship, the Neptune, and the damage the Neptune takes in a world away from what the RN BBs takes in characteristics. Super heal is not a replacement for HE resistant plating, as said, it serves the exact opposite role, which is why you cannot tank in the RN BBs and must play slow.As for the AP pen debate,1: I tell a guy not to aim for BB belts because RN BB AP Pen is bad,2: You chime in and tell me their AP pen is not bad, obviously implying to aim for belts3: I post proof the pen is bad,4: You: 'My god you idiot, why are you aiming for belt?' Like, what the hell is this.Underwater citadels are not rare.
Problem exists between keyboard and chair. I suggest you actually play more than 2 lines of BBs, and play them well, before you try such a broad statement again.As for sec spec Moskva, some guy came into this thread a while back, heralding that secondary spec Moskva is the best build, despite having only Tier 6 ships. You are very quickly approaching that level of idiocy.You know what, I'm just gonna take page outta your book;As the 25th best Monarch player on NA and the 40th best Amagi player, as well as someone who has all BBs lines to Tier 10, I am going to tell you that the British Battleship line is shit at tanking. Click to expand.sigh.Superheal vs. Plating is not a debate about tanking. It's a debate about total survivability.
One mitigates damage, the other heals it. Both increase survivability.Your comment on USN subsection HP is just. That's not in the game. At all.I don't know where you got that idea, but it's just flat-out not true.For AP pen: yes, you have to aim at the upper belt at long range. Boo hoo.At close-medium range, you can aim for the waterline just fine.Underwater citadels are incredibly rare. I don't know why you think otherwise, but you're wrong.
Test it in training room.sigh.Superheal vs. Plating is not a debate about tanking. It's a debate about total survivability. One mitigates damage, the other heals it.
Both increase survivability.Your comment on USN subsection HP is just. That's not in the game. At all.I don't know where you got that idea, but it's just flat-out not true.For AP pen: yes, you have to aim at the upper belt at long range.
Boo hoo.At close-medium range, you can aim for the waterline just fine.Underwater citadels are incredibly rare. I don't know why you think otherwise, but you're wrong. Test it in training room. Click to expand.Wow look at all these tracks on the field, someone's been dragging the goalposts all over the place, gonna be a pain to relay all the lawn.For the module HP comment, it's not some mysterious USN thing, it's just how AoN BBs have their HP distributed, it's how they mitigate HE despite being vulnerable all over.
USN BBs are all AoN standards without a lick of HE resistance until NC, where it starts getting HE immune plating, hence, USN BBs without HE resistant plating mitigate HE by having less subsection HP.If you are actually claiming there is equal percentage HP distribution between subsections for all BBs down or across lines though, now that's a damn fine bridge to sell.Secondly, I was the one who was arguing that RN BBs have unreliable AP against BB belts past 15km until high tiers while you decided to claim their AP is fine. I proved you wrong, and first you pretended to be the one giving the actual sensible advice of aiming high, and now you're acting like I don't know which range is appropriate for AP use, or that I was recommending that you don't use AP at all in RN BBs.And to think, all this started from when I gave very specific advice on AP performance to someone moving from the USN BB line to the RN BB line.Stop.
My faith in stupidity in lieu of malice only goes so far.It's the same damn thing again with superheal. I've said all I need to. Same case with Super heal, it's completely ineffective at mitigating cruiser alpha damage, especially given the terrible HP of the RN BBs, but fantastic at stopping DOT. It's the exact opposite of how all other BB lines tank, and because you take damage in such a spiky manner, rather than the slower, smoother delta of the plating protected BBs, you must rely on your stealth and disengage.
That's why they need to play slowly and carefully, otherwise you die in minutes after managing to pop a single super heal cycle. Click to expand.I don't know what windmill in particular you are tilting at, but I have been incredibly, precisely clear on my point. British BBs can't mitigate HE alpha. They have shit HP, especially at high tiers.
They will die very fast to cruisers. They must use their stealth and avoid drawing too much heat.Kicks a shot at your newly moved goalposts. Do they have good survivability?Yes. Yes, they do.Underwater cits are not rare. Underwater cits are not hard.
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I mean really, I've seen your stats, your aim is great. Your aim is better than mine I believe in main gun hit percentage on most ships we both own. I'm pretty confident that you are actually just unable to recognize when you are getting underwater cits.
I'm not even going to bother responding beyond this point. Once you play a few more lines of BBs, you'll know them when you see them too.
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